[rhod3house]

Before you read, my filter replacements are done at 15k, but will probably ramp up to every 10k, and i get diesel at valero, shell, and HEB. So fuel quality isn't much of an issue as far as I can tell.

So my truck went in for its last maintenance oil change and a check engine light about low fuel pressure. Got a call that afternoon saying that they found metal shavings in my fuel system and the truck wasn't going anywhere for a while. Been digging through the interwebs and found ALOT of info about CP4 failures in dodge, GM, ford 6.7s, and the class action lawsuits that have been following.

The lucky thing I have on my side is that my truck is still under warranty and it wasn't a battle to get it to be covered.

Has anyone else had an issue this early with their fuel pump? Ive read that it happens around 100k, but man, mine seems just was too early and thats got me rattled, since this is my work/personal truck.

Been debating about downgrading to cp3 if possible, or upgrade to FASS system down the road if need be.

Any and all info is appreciated!

 

[jmperlik]

@rhod3house - Not good! Scary that you are already using the higher frequency 15K mile fuel filter schedule and suffered an injection pump failure.

While researching my response for Post #21 in Surging thread, I was also alarmed at the number of CP4-related class action lawsuits against all three (3) of the US truck manufacturers. Bosch earned a pretty good reputation with their bulletproof CP3 pump, which is probably why all three used the next-generation CP4 pump in all of their diesel platforms. I did enough research to learn that the pump in our F150 Diesels is indeed the Bosch CP4.2 injection pump.

The major problem is that when the pump fails, not only do you need to replace the pump, but you also need to replace pretty much everything else in the fuel delivery system downstream from the pump; e.g injectors, fuel rails, hard lines/pipes, etc. which is what makes this a $10K service job.

While not an F150 PowerStroke Diesel, @Orangeman chimed in very recently regarding a used LandRover Discovery he just purchased needing a new pump at 40K miles: Bosch CP4 Fuel pump issues, need replacement at 40k miles

All of the class action suits blamed the lack of lubricity in ULSD as the cause of the pump failures, and since all three truck manufacturers are using this version of the pump in their engines, I think the writing-is-on-the-wall that we should all expect to see premature injection pump failures due to lack of lubricity = taking no action is like continuing to smoke after being diagnosed with emphysema.

What options are available to us as owners to combat this known prognosis?

1. Run a Fuel additive specifically to boost Lubricity in your fuel;
   e.g. Stanadyne Lubricity Formula
2. Drain water separator on a frequent/monthly basis
3. Switch to more frequent fuel filter service cycle; e.g. no more than 15K miles
4. Engage someone like XDP to create a CP4 By-Pass Kit for our F150s;
   e.g. XDP 6.7L PowerStroke CP4 ByPass Kit
   => Highly unlikely any vendor will produce bypass kit given small # of F150 PSDs
5. Downgrade to CP3
   => Anyone know if this is even possible on our F150 3.0Ls?
   => Highly unlikely any vendor will produce downgrade kit given small # of F150 PSDs
6. Extended Warranty through duration of ownership
   => Doesn't solve issue but places repair responsibility/cost on Ford
   => See next post for strike-thru reason
7. Start/Join a class action lawsuit
   => Need enough failures to warrant a class action lawsuit

Not trying to be Chicken Little here but the sheer fact that there are multiple CP4-related class action lawsuits against all three (3) US truck manufacturers speaks volumes for our future. The Ford class action lawsuit is for the 6.7s which are 2011-2016 vintage, so a lot of these trucks have more than 100K and should used as a canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator. In terms of my truck, I'm taking both Routes #1 (every fill-up) and #6 (8yr/100K) above in order to minimize my exposure, but I also understand neither are guarantees against a pump failure.

This looks to be another joy of diesel ownership...

 

[jmperlik]

Interesting read for the first ~100 or so pages: Ford use of Bosch CP4 pump complaint which includes vehicle details for of five (5) members of the class, which in this case are F250-F350 SuperDuty owners. Mileage ranges from 35K to 91K = all within the 5 yr/100K PowerStroke Diesel Engine warranty, yet Ford declined a warranty claim for all five:

Ford informed Plaintiff that the CP4 pump was not covered under warranty and refused to cover the repairs despite the fact the truck had only approximately xx,xxx miles on it.​

​

or blames the owner for "poor fuel quality" even though Ford knew that US ULSD is cleaner/drier than European Diesel.

Based on this, I'm scratching my #6 off my list above and I would consider @rhod3house very lucky that everything was covered under warranty.

 

[Laytunes]

@rhod3house - Not good! Scary that you are already using the higher frequency 15K mile fuel filter schedule and suffered an injection pump failure.

While researching my response for Post #21 in Surging thread, I was also alarmed at the number of CP4-related class action lawsuits against all three (3) of the US truck manufacturers. Bosch earned a pretty good reputation with their bulletproof CP3 pump, which is probably why all three used the next-generation CP4 pump in all of their diesel platforms. I did enough research to learn that the pump in our F150 Diesels is indeed the Bosch CP4.2 injection pump.

The major problem is that when the pump fails, not only do you need to replace the pump, but you also need to replace pretty much everything else in the fuel delivery system downstream from the pump; e.g injectors, fuel rails, hard lines/pipes, etc. which is what makes this a $10K service job.

While not an F150 PowerStroke Diesel, @Orangeman chimed in very recently regarding a used LandRover Discovery he just purchased needing a new pump at 40K miles: Bosch CP4 Fuel pump issues, need replacement at 40k miles

All of the class action suits blamed the lack of lubricity in ULSD as the cause of the pump failures, and since all three truck manufacturers are using this version of the pump in their engines, I think the writing-is-on-the-wall that we should all expect to see premature injection pump failures due to lack of lubricity = taking no action is like continuing to smoke after being diagnosed with emphysema.

What options are available to us as owners to combat this known prognosis?

1. Run a Fuel additive specifically to boost Lubricity in your fuel;
   e.g. Stanadyne Lubricity Formula
2. Engage someone like XDP to create a CP4 By-Pass Kit for our F150s;
   e.g. XDP 6.7L PowerStroke CP4 ByPass Kit
3. Downgrade to CP3
   => Any know if this is even possible on our F150 3.0Ls?
4. Extended Warranty through duration of ownership
   => Doesn't solve issue but places repair responsibility/cost on Ford
5. Start/Join a class action lawsuit

Not trying to be Chicken Little here but the sheer fact that there are multiple CP4-related class action lawsuits against all three (3) US truck manufacturers speaks volumes for our future. The Ford class action lawsuit is for the 6.7s which are 2011-2016 vintage, so a lot of these trucks have more than 100K and should used as a canary-in-the-coal-mine indicator. In terms of my truck, I'm taking both Routes #1 (every fill-up) and #4 (8yr/100K) above in order to minimize my exposure, but I also understand neither are guarantees against a pump failure.

This looks to be another joy of diesel ownership...

All of the class actions were mainly due to the failure of those manufacturers to use lift pumps to boost pressure before it gets to the pump, and relying on the CP4 to bring the fuel from the tank, to the engine on its own. This wears them out much faster, and the higher pressure differential also lead to more air being pulled into the system (essentially this created strong vacuum in the line). All of the manufacturers are now using lift pumps, including our engines, so the issue shouldn't be any where near what it was.

That said, they will always be sensitive to air and water in the fuel lines, that is what kills them 99% of the time. When you change your fuel filter, you have to be certain that you've purged the system 5 times or more to ensure the air is out of the lines before you start the truck, or that will almost certainly score your pump. I would say that not doing this also contributes to a large amount of failures.

with that, 5% biodiesel in the fuel replaces all if not more of the lubricity lost with sulphur. If you don't have that in your fuel, then a fuel additive is a good idea. It's also important to note that the sulphur content of fuel in europe is less than what it is in the US, so they might say that this is a reason (and maybe it was 15 years ago when they dropped it), but the failures are mainly related to lack of a lift pump (strain), fuel quality, air, water, and improper maintenance.

by being aware of this and taking care of it accordingly, the pumps should last as long as your engine.

 

[jmperlik]

@Laytunes - thanks for chiming in and adding some confidence level back.

@Dunrollin mentioned the lack of a lift pump in the 6.7 SuperDutys in the Surging thread and I had already forgotten about that. Air/cavitation was also mentioned in some of the threads I was reading, so if the fuel is the lubricant between the cam & roller and we get air instead of fuel, one can see that could cause cam shaft scoring.

Been reading about CP4 failures on some of the Dodge Ram forums and seeing 2019/2020 owners with failures at very low mileage (under 36K) and those trucks do have lift pumps, so I'm not convinced that lift pumps are the "silver bullet" to resolve CP4 pump failures. Cummins used a CP3 up thru 2018 and switched to CP4 in the 2019 = now 2019/2020 owners are having injection pump failures left & right and think the CP4 is a PoS. Interesting that Cummins went back to a CP3 pump in the 2021 Rams: Ram Moves Away From The CP4.2 Injection Pump For 2021

I found a pretty good YouTube video that compares a CP3 vs a CP4 lower end side-by-side:

​

Bosch CP4 vs CP3 High Pressure Fuel Pump Comparison​

After watching this, I understand why they say the CP3 is bulletproof and how the CP4 has some major design flaws: The bucket/foot design on the CP3 (where the foot doesn't move much at all) vs the roller bearing design is night-and-day difference in terms of friction and that fact that Bosch didn't key or guide the CP4 piston allowing the roller bearing to rotate is a fatal flaw = roller doesn't roll when the piston rotates 90 degrees and is just pure metal-on-metal scoring on the cam lobe(s).

Agree with your statements on biodiesel adding back some lubricity -- I don't have access to biodiesel here in the Northeast, so I've been going the fuel additive route.

Currently looking for specs on CP3, as I know the newer trucks have much higher fuel rail pressures, so not sure if a CP3 upgrade can reach the rail pressures required.

Edit: Found some helpful info here: The Return of The King (Of Injection Pumps)

• Max pressure for CP3 = ~26,000 PSI
• Max pressure for CP4.2 = 29,000 PSI

so a direct CP4 to CP3 swap would not be possible without some PCM tuning + more; e.g. CP3 is larger so don't even know if it would fit.... No CP3 upgrade option for 6.7L SuperDutys due to space restrictions on where it mounts on engine, so scratching #5 off my list for now...

Learning something new every day...

 

[Laytunes]

@jmperlik Yeah true, the CP3 was a more robust design, flowed more volume, yet couldn't get to the pressures that we have now in most diesels. You also have to consider that the CP4 pump is used in many heavy duty applications, and can be very reliable, it's just sensitive and you have to treat it well. There are many 6.7's with 100'000's of problem free miles on them.

Our 3.0 also flows about half the fuel of these other applications, so maybe that will translate to longer life, idk. As with everything failures will and do happen, but do what you can for it with quality fuel and lube, and it will server you well. 5% biodiesel is common in almost every pump up here in canada, pretty sure it's mandated, Not sure about the US.

In terms of a retrofit, we'll likely never see that for this application, as yes the pressures, but also they need to be modified for every application, so in this case it would need to be fitted with the proper sprocket (to fit the belt) and internals to meet the requirements of the engine. So it's unlikely a manufacturer would go after this small part of the market, especially with the engine out of the US. Also as you mentioned, i don't think a CP3 would even fit.

 

[navyR113]

The 6.7 super duty trucks- as well as the Ram HD Cummins trucks and the 3.0 diesel F150s- already have an in-tank lift pump. The issue super duty and Ram HD trucks run into is overworking the CP4 in high horsepower modified trucks, which is when most owners of those trucks install a higher capacity external lift pump to compensate for the extra fuel demand (like fass). The GM HD trucks have no lift pump from the factory at all and rely entirely on the CP4 to do the work of drawing from the tank and pressurizing fuel, causing those trucks to have a much higher HPFP failure rate. Couple the lack of or an overworked lift pump with the low lubricity of ulsd fuel and that's when you have the most issues. Running a fuel additive to replace the lubricity solves 99% of the issue in trucks that already have a lift pump (like ours).

 

[rhod3house]

So other than some of the basic maintenance (fuel filters at 15k, might even do them sooner) what are the additives out there that yall use? It's kinda tough filtering through the ads from companies stating that theirs is the best for preventing CP4 failure.

 

[Dunrollin]

I did some research and came up with a big headache. Everyone has their favorite and I just use what I use in the motorhome, Opti-lube xpd. Their claims seem to match the studies. Having said that, any is probably OK, I have seen several mentioned here so I bet there are dozens that will do the job.

 

[navyR113]

What dunrollin said. I prefer Hotshots Secret EDT, their claims are also backed up by independent evaluations. I know other people have their own preferences. Ask ten people and you might get ten answers. Take what you're told with a grain of salt, but know that something is better than nothing.

 

[beaker]

I have run Stanadyne Lubricity Formula in every tank since new on my 3.0L Touareg, and have been adding it to the F-150 since I bought that one (actually to all my diesels). My Touareg's CP4 has 120,000 miles on it without any issue, and about half of those miles are running straight No.1 Diesel, which has a wear scar rating about 100 microns higher than No. 2. The fragility of the CP-4 and the winter grade of fuel is why I run a lubricity additive.

I came across a study done by someone on a Duramax forum that showed Optilube XPD had the best performance. I would buy that if I could readily get it in Alaska. As it is, I up my dosage on the Stanadyne to about 1.5x on the CP-4 equipped vehicles, and use the standard dosage on the others.

Info: - Lubricity Additive Study Results

The failure rate is high (maybe 2 - 4% overall?), but it seems misfueling is the leading cause (not necessarily by the owner... it can be by the fuel supplier). I am also very careful to completely purge my fuel system of air after filter changes so as not to run the pump dry..

 

[PeteK]

Beaker, thanks for that link. Very interesting and informative. I noted that study was done in August 2007. There are now more/different additives on the market. But just mixing in 2% biodiesel gave excellent results then, and should now, and at the lowest cost.

 

[Laytunes]

(219) I Asked Diesel Repair Shop Owner What Is The Most Unreliable Diesel! - YouTube

Here's a vid of a diesel shop mechanic going over the biggest problems he sees on various diesels, if you skip to about 1:50 he talks about the CP4, and in his experience, it's an overblown issue on the forums as he doesn't actually see that many failures with respect to the number of them on the road, and that's on the duramax with no lift pump. So again although they do fail, it's not common, and as long as you treat them right you should be good. #alwaystimeforlube

 

[beaker]

(219) I Asked Diesel Repair Shop Owner What Is The Most Unreliable Diesel! - YouTube

Here's a vid of a diesel shop mechanic going over the biggest problems he sees on various diesels, if you skip to about 1:50 he talks about the CP4, and in his experience, it's an overblown issue on the forums as he doesn't actually see that many failures with respect to the number of them on the road, and that's on the duramax with no lift pump. So again although they do fail, it's not common, and as long as you treat them right you should be good. #alwaystimeforlube

I 100% agree with the mechanic's opinion that he CP4 issue is overblown. The biggest preventative measure I have reinforced with my daughters and wife is to triple check that the correct fuel is going into the vehicle. Check the nozzle and follow the hose out to to the source of the pump. And keep a receipt; when the dealer says you filled with gasoline, you want to point fingers at the station for a $15,000 repair.

As an aside regarding the video, it is filmed at Ryan's Diesel in Wisconsin. Last summer, after the transfer case in my Duramax failed, I was in search of a bunch of pandemic-unavailable parts to rebuild it. I had a job in the area, so I decided to stop by and see if I could purchase the parts. Unfortunately, they did not have any of the parts that I was looking for, but the owner (Mark) is absolutely fantastic. I think he could rebuild an Allison transmission blindfolded. He gave me numerous tips, and was more than generous with his time, even though he sold me nothing at all. They looked to be 90% Duramax, but if you live in the area and need work on your 3.0, I would absolutely give this shop a call and see if they would be willing to work on it.

 

[jmperlik]

So other than some of the basic maintenance (fuel filters at 15k, might even do them sooner) what are the additives out there that yall use? It's kinda tough filtering through the ads from companies stating that theirs is the best for preventing CP4 failure.

I let this thread percolate for a while to allow others to chime in with their recommendations. I've been running Stanadyne Performance Formula every tankful since new and started running Standayne Lubricity Formula (in addition to the Performance Formula) since I had my Titan 40 gallon XXL tank installed in October 2019. Stick with an additive that a.) contains no alcohol an b.) is a demulsifier to help the water separator pull out any water in your fuel.

I may have come out a little "hot" in my first post in this thread, but I wanted to list out the possible actions owners could take based on the dozens of threads I read up on CP4 pump failures across all HD truck makes. My intent was to strike-thru possible options that are not currently available as others provided info and I continued my research.

I hope (and pray!) that @Laytunes is right that the CP4 is adequate on our smaller 3.0L engines that are pumping half of the fuel that the larger HD (6 liter and above displacement) engines and we won't be prone to the higher failure rates like these HD models:

• 2011-2015 Ford 6.7L PowerStroke
  • Found some forum posts referencing a special coating added after 2015?
  • Found some forum posts referencing at least two (2) CP4 redesigns?
  • Ford is still using CP4.2 today, so maybe Ford figured something out?
• 2011-2016 Chevy/GM 6.6L Duramax
  • No lift pump/cavitation possible causes?
  • Switched to Denso pump in 2017
• 2019-2020 Dodge Ram HD models w/6.7L Cummins
  • Active recalls on these models (pump being overworked/overspun?)
  • Switched back to CP3 for 2021 and above models

If you look at what's left in my list in Post #2 in this thread, I think the only current proactive things we as owners can do is practice good fuel system maintenance including:

1. Run a Fuel additive specifically to boost Lubricity in your fuel
2. Drain water separator on a frequent/monthly basis
3. Switch to more frequent fuel filter service interval; e.g. no more than 15K miles

and hope/pray that the CP4 pumps in our trucks hold together

I also hope that members who are pushing 30K+ miles on their fuel filter intervals are paying attention as to yet another reason they should be changing their filters on more frequent basis, as there are known issues with the CP4.2 pump used in our trucks that make them more sensitive to fuel quality than those engines with the Bosch CP3 pump.

 

[jmperlik]

@rhod3house - if you follow the Stanadyne Lubricity Formula link I posted in Post #2, you will find this link in the "Related Documents" section that contains their "head-to-head shoot-out" of their Performance Formula compared to some of their competitors: Stanadyne Performance Formula Diesel Additive Comparison CC-99625

Now this is some internal comparison they did where they came out in first place in all categories with no references or details, so you'll need to take their marketing with-a-grain-of-salt... I'm not using the Stanadyne because of this brochure but rather due to their being an injection component manufacturer and Ford's prior approval of Stanadyne Performance Formula for PowerStroke engines (Ford OASIS message 12370)

HotShot's Secret, however, isn't allowing any room for confusion with their new product:

LX4 Lubricity Extreme CP4 Fuel System Saver | Hot Shot's Secret (hotshotsecret.com)​

LX4 LUBRICITY EXTREME - RESOLVES CP4 HIGH-PRESSURE FUEL INJECTION PUMP INCOMPATABILITY ISSUES WITH AMERICAN PRODUCED ULTRA-LOW SULFUR DIESEL (ULSD) FUEL​

including a list of vehicles that use a Bosch CP4 Injection pump. Ironically, our 2018-2021 F150 PowerStroke 3.0L Diesels are not listed...

@beaker (since you were guessing at failure rates) HotShot's Secret claims a 7% failure rate for CP4 pumps in US compared to ~1% failure rate in Europe in their marketing literature as proof the failures are due to the low lubricity of ULSD.... A 7% failure rate resulting in $8K-$12K in repairs sounds pretty high (on both fronts) to me!

 

[hydrex]

If you don't use an additive in your diesel you are relying on the diesel supplier for what they use. That's why I have always use Hot Shot's EDT in every tank. I'm fortunate to have my own bulk tank that I also treat with antigel Lucas in winter and Diesel Kleen in summer. I am very careful to prime the fuel system in my Ram Ecodiesel 6 times before starting after a fuel filter change to purge all air out. Ford may use a different lift pump set up than the Ram, but air in the system will kill a CP4 quickern ****. Seems like the Cummins Rams had a much higher failure rate than the Ecodiesels and Cummins went back to the CP3. There are folks on the Ecodiesel forums with over 500,000 miles without a CP4 failure and 1 guy has close to a million miles on his, though he had to replace 1 motor due to a cracked head caused by the dealer damage from improper glow plug install. I think that motor failed at just under 500,000 miles. It's a good pump, but....

 

[rhod3house]

Thanks for all of the info here, fellas. This is my first diesel that I personally own, and these newer ones seem to have a bit of issues compared to some from the good ol days. Regardless, I'm doing my best to be proactive with maintenance on it now that I just crossed the 50k mark. Since it now has a brand new fuel system, it definitely runs smoother, and I'd like to keep it that way. Seeing all the links for all the data is a huge plus, since I'm definitely a data nerd. The summers here in South Texas can be brutal, so definitely looking for an additive to help out along the way.

Much appreciated for all the information!

 

[jmperlik]

@rhod3house - Stanadyne does make a "Warm Weather Blend" (red label) of their Performance Formula that is basically their All-season Performance Formula less the winterization components:

• Wax Modifier/Pour Point Depressant
• Wax Dispersant
• Freeze Depressant

Their Warm Weather Blend sounds right up your alley for your South Texas hot weather!